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Editor’s note: The Civil Beat Editorial Board spoke on Wednesday with the second-highest public official in Hawaii. Lt. Gov. Sylvia Luke, who previously chaired the Hawaii House Finance Committee, began by explaining how her life has changed since being elected to higher office. This interview has been edited for length and clarity and with an eye toward issues we plan to break out into stories.

I was just talking to someone about this, because when in the Legislature, things really ramp up the last basically three weeks and there’s so many things, right? So there are bills, our budget. And as money chairs, you have to at least know what’s going on in a lot of the bills and you have to do a lot of communication.

So the last two weeks, in fact, of conference and maybe a week before, I’m in the office sometimes before 6 and I leave at 1. But it’s such a truncated, tight schedule that I’m just exhausted right after it’s done. And then it kind of ramps up. And then you’re exhausted and you just feel like you don’t want to deal with anybody. And then you kind of regroup and refresh.

But for LG, it seems like we’re constantly doing stuff all the time and there’s no ramp up. So at some point you feel like, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to have a heart attack or have a stroke or something.” You know, that’s really nice because (in the Legislature) everything is truncated in basically four months and is even more crazy in the last three weeks. With the added frustration of where is this bill going, what and why are they doing this kind of stuff. I think that adds to a lot more pressure. So in that way (as LG) it’s more controlled and nice.

The other thing is even if you’re Finance chair, your concentration is still in your district, whereas as lieutenant governor you’re looking out for the interests of the entire state. The most unexpected part of this job, which I really like, is I had no idea the level of engagement we do with community. For instance, a community association from Naalehu reached out and said, “Hey, can you come to celebrate Kuhio Day with us?” And so I did.

I want to be even more receptive to small communities because these are individuals who maybe have never had contact on a state level. And even if you meet a few dozen people, they’re going to remember and they’re going to tell you stuff that you’ve never heard of before. And I’m constantly surprised how many remarks and keynote speeches people ask me to do because I would think everybody wants to hear from the governor. So I feel really humbled and excited anytime anybody asks me to come out and speak.

In many ways, because you were Finance chair, so many people came to you with budget requests, with testimony and bills. But here you’re now going to them, in many ways. I look at your social media. I looked at all your press releases. You’ve been going everywhere. Is it a little overwhelming at times?

No. You know what? That’s the part I really like because, when I decided to run, I said, “Okay, it’s not just about bridging the relationship to the Legislature, but it’s that connection to the community.” And even as part of the Finance Committee, we did a lot of site visits.

And for many of these neighbor island communities, it means a big deal when the committee comes out to look at what’s important for them, what’s important for their area, their district. And it really means like somebody is listening. It’s just that connection. So for me I thought that was really important.

We have these pop up newsrooms that we’re trying to do basically the same thing ,and we’re getting a lot of story ideas. Was there one or two things that stayed with you that you heard from folks who you said did want to come to you and tell you things? An issue that you took back with you to your office.

Yeah. So, in fact, on Lanai, apparently there is no governor or lieutenant governor’s representative. And there has not been a government rep for years.

Like they have on all the other islands.

Yeah. And even the coordinator on Maui, I think he recognizes that it’s really hard for there to be a Maui rep, a Lanai rep, a Molokai rep but at the same time, it means so much for that community. But you know that in itself costs resources, too. So what I try to do is reach out as much as I can when there is no specific representation.

You have to actually go out to reconnect, to look at people in the eye and tell them, “Hey, you know what? I’m serious. I don’t know if I can solve all your problems,” but to have this connection and let them believe that, hey, you know what? “I am here and I’m here to listen.” And I think that in itself makes a big difference in a lot of people’s minds.

The budget process, as you know, went down to the wire and there were a lot of problems. You were just talking about being on the fifth floor this time during conference committee. I’m wondering as a former Finance chair who worked with Donovan Dela Cruz, the Senate Ways and Means chair. People must have called you and said, “Hey, we’re having some troubles getting this budget together.” Can you talk a little bit about that?

One of the things I did not want to do is I did not want to be the hoverer, because I wanted them to succeed. And when I decided to leave the Legislature, I had a lot of people saying stuff like, “You know what, I think you’ll be great as LG.” Well, some people said, “Why would you want to do the No. 2 job when you can be Finance (chair)?” But there were individuals, a pretty good number that said, “I’d rather you stay as Finance chair because you have experience and in uncertain, difficult issues you know how to navigate those issues.” And it is a learning curve.

But when I decided to leave the Legislature and run for lieutenant governor, there were moments where I thought, “Okay, you know what? I really want them to succeed because you always want the Legislature to succeed coming from the Legislature.” But at the same time, I didn’t want to be that individual to go and be like, “Hey, you need my advice? This is how you should do it.” Because they all need to grow in their own way.

And I had very different styles than Marcus Oshiro. I had very different styles than Joe Souki and Calvin Say. And so everybody has to define and be comfortable with who you are and how you deal with it. And you don’t want to be where people just come up to use me to undermine them either. So I didn’t want that to happen. I wanted them to be able to sort it out because that’s part of the growing process as well as a new Finance chair and new responsibility.

But did people call you and ask for your advice?

Yeah, a lot of times. It would be young legislators, I had a relationship with them. Like, for instance, Rachele Lamosao was my office manager and Darius Kila worked during session for Rep. Stacelynn Eli. I knew Jenna Takenouchi because she was also an office manager and Andrew Garrett who had relationship in the Legislature. I knew several of them.

And sometimes, as a new elected official with new responsibility and what to do, you all of a sudden get in a situation where it’s stressful to deal with. “How do you deal with personalities? How did you solve these issues in the past?” Or they come and talk to me and it was more getting my input, and a lot of times it’s like I felt like the auntie or the counselor sometimes because a lot of times they just want to talk it out.

So the real question, though, is did (Finance Chair) Kyle Yamashita call and ask for your advice?

Kyle did call. Donovan called. Sometimes it was just to get thoughts and, you know, how would I handle it. But I would just tell them “you’ve got to do what you feel is comfortable. This is how I did it.” And you have to be the one to communicate, because how does it look when they go back and go, “Oh, Sylvia said we should do it this way,” and that should never be the case, right?

How do you think Yamashita did?

I think there were a lot of lessons learned. I think he understands that, too. One of the things that I did tell him as a feedback is he needs to communicate better with. Not just with his colleagues, but with the media. I think the tendency was that he did not want to talk to the media. I don’t know what the experience is you had.

It was exactly as you say. He was terrible. We’ll just say that, since this is the editorial board.

So I did tell him one of your jobs is to communicate well with the membership and then communicate with the media, because otherwise, you know, you’re letting the media and the members kind of formulate what the realities are. And there’s a benefit of better communication. And I think that he understands that.

He has one year under his belt, and he did recognize that he needs to work on the communication side. And I think he will be better for it. And right now he is doing his best. It’s kind of beyond his comfort — because he’s a very introverted individual, even if he’s been there a long time.

So we’ve heard that they’re looking for a replacement. What do you hear about that?

Yeah, you know what? There’s always rumors about that. And I did hear that, too.

I think what happened at the end of session wasn’t the Legislature’s best moment. But I think it’s something that everybody recognizes. There is nobody in the Legislature who is saying, “Oh, no, that’s normal and that’s how it should be.” I think after that experience, they all said, “Okay, we can never let this happen again.”

And I think there’s a commitment by leadership, because I did talk to the Senate president as well, to make sure that they’re going to do a better job themselves to communicate with the money chairs and the different chairs. And I think there’s a commitment by the money chairs as well that that wasn’t the best moment and that something like that causes confusion. And members didn’t know and there’s lack of communication with people who cared about these bills and issues who’ve been working on these bills for months. For it to end like that, I think everybody recognizes that that cannot happen.

I noticed that one of the bills that the governor mentioned, his intent to veto bill, , which had to do with apostilles fees.

I never heard of apostilles until I became lieutenant governor.

So the bill would have increased the fees from $1 to $10, I think, for LG-related things. And so you testified in strong support of the bill. The governor decided he’s probably going to veto it, citing that that’s a huge increase. But what stuck with me was you mentioned in your testimony that the apostilles system is extremely archaic. What are the barriers to updating that system?

So this is something that I had to learn. I didn’t even know how it was supposed to be pronounced. We looked up that — ah-PAH-stil. So what an apostille is it’s a certification of a state document according to the Hague Convention. The way that things would get triggered is say you want to adopt a child from wherever —Japan, Korea — and they want to know your birth certificate. So it’s not enough that you get your birth certificate from the Department of Health. You need to have it certified by a state entity like the authorized certified agency. That’s me. So only the LG’s office can put a big stamp and say, this is your birth certificate.

Say that you want to do business in Canada and they want to know — whatever, Bureau of Conveyance documents. Even that kind of document you need a certification. And I do it.

We were surprised how many applications come in. And because there is no system of upgrading, right now the only way you can pay for an application — it’s $1 — is through cash or cashier’s check. So we get complaints.

So the idea of upgrading the system and making an online filing and then have people be able to pay for it either through e-check or credit card. The unfortunate thing is credit cards, they’re not going to let you charge for a dollar. Usually it’s like $3 or $5 at a minimum. And then if we were to do it by credit card, there’s a service fee. But we want to eat that. So let’s look at what was the cost of the average of certification around the nation, and it was around like $15 to $25. But we thought even $10 might be a little steep.

And we did not have any negative testimony throughout the whole process. In fact, people were like, “Yeah, why is it so antiquated? Why do you need do it? Why isn’t there an online system?” So we’re moving from a system where it’s user fees or whatever is generated. We would use that money to purchase an online platform, and then also pay the service fee for that credit card. So that was the idea behind this thing.

But after the bill passed, the governor said he did get some feedback. So I said, why don’t we just have you veto the bill and then we’ll work out in the interim if we can try to change the system without additional cost or, you know, with the amount that has been delegated to our office in next year’s budget, use that amount as a starting amount, and then figure out how do you have it be kind of self-sustaining.

And that’s the whole idea of upgrading the apostille system. The system has not changed since 1960.
And I think that’s one of the most frustrating things is that the rest of the state and the rest of the country has moved so far ahead. And why is it that state government is still here on a paper system?

My biggest pet peeve of the responsibility of our office is admin rules. We get admin rules from every department, and when we get the admin rules that are revised, we have to hand stamp every single page of the admin rule. That’s really antiquated. Admin rules are given to us in paper form and PDF. You can’t even do a searchable comparison. One of the things I told the Legislature that I would like to do next year is we be the depository of all the admin rules and then have it searchable.

There is nothing like that in the state. And you would think in this day and age, with this kind of technology and people are searching for things on your web page, there should be an avenue for us to do that.

For anybody in, whether it’s our office or anybody else, I think that’s where even Josh is changing the way how state government runs, because we identify a problem and we react. Maybe this is how it’s always been, but we have to ask the next question. Why is that? And is there a way that we can cut the tape or cut some of the regulation and say how do you get to here.

Along those same lines, it’s just been over half a year the governor has been in office, but he has said — and I’m paraphrasing — “We’re going to move fast and a lot of this stuff, we’re not just going to sit and wait.” But he also acknowledged that that would be disruptive to a lot of people that are used to things moving at a certain pace. Have you encountered resistance to the way that you guys are approaching things?

Just from the Ready Keiki perspective, the Legislature provided $200 million to build classrooms. So $200 million will build whatever how many classrooms you get for 3- and 4-year-olds. Even to do that, in the beginning when we tried to get things built, we had roadblocks along every step. And it took basically three or four months to have meetings with different AGs, the DOE, because they were all saying, “Cannot be done, cannot be done. It’s going to be two years.” And then I kept telling them I only gave myself two years because I specifically, when I helped pass the $200 million, we put a very short fuse because I wanted that kind of delivery within two years. And the departments did not want to accept that — “Hey, they’re working on a short fuse and if it lapses it, it lapses,” which is kind of the unfortunate reality a lot of times.

I mean, why not? What was the resistance? And I just want to make sure, are you talking about Act 46, specifically the one that passed while you were still in the House?

Right.

So basically, when you become LG, you’re then in charge of the legislation that you passed, in order to enable more classrooms for pre-K. So what’s the resistance?

The resistance was whether you needed to go through permitting. So then the “knee-jerk” was you had to go through permitting. If you go through permitting, it’s going to be two years at a minimum, or sometimes it’s three years. Second thing was, because the School Facility Authority didn’t completely have all the personnel, I wanted them to allow DOE to do it. There were some questions about whether DOE can use SFA money. SFA is the construction arm. So even allowing DOE to do some of the work, there was resistance by some of the attorney generals, but we were able to clear all of that.
And so even now the pleasant surprise is for us to open 11 classrooms this August. I’m going to make sure that I will be there, that it actually opens are allowed because a lot of times it never happens.

Where are those classrooms going to be?

One is in Hana and one is in Wailuku, one is in Waimea on the Big Island. There are two in Kalihi, one in Lincoln Elementary School, which is next to Papakolea, heavily Native Hawaiian and first generation. One in Sunset (Beach), one in Mililani — Honowai Elementary. Wahiawa was one. And then there’s couple more.

I’m hearing you say you’re going to be there to make sure that that ground is broken.

The construction has started on all those schools. I want to make sure that they have kids there on the first day of school. But the most exciting thing is this: Of these 11 schools, there are only 20 seats because you want to restrict the class size. Honowai Elementary in the first month of announcing that they’re going to have a preschool, as of last week 40 people applied for a 20-student classroom. So it’s exciting, but at the same time it’s really sad because we’ve been talking about preschool forever.

And now that you’re going to open and there are people wanting this service. And not only that, they have now maxed out. They maxed out on a couple other schools.

Honowai is in the Waipahu-Mililani-ish area, so you think about the need out there. People found out because it’s so humbug to find out where preschools are to begin with. But for them to know that, hey, there’s a preschool, a free preschool opening and they’re all applying it, it makes me kind of step back and have this reality check that we’re doing something to help people. But at the same time, why haven’t we been doing this all along? Because if there’s so much demand for these free preschools, then it’s kind of sad that we haven’t stepped up until what we are doing now.

You have a preschool enrollment goal of 100% by 2032. That’s what the bill said. Is that reasonable now that you’re on the other side? With 465 classrooms statewide?

Yeah. I think that’s doable.

If you could update us on the other piece of that, which is the teacher shortage and your plans for creating a pipeline and for bringing on board early educators.

Right now, in order to be a preschool teacher, it’s a dual degree. Because there is a commitment to build a lot more seats, the University of Hawaii on its own through our discussion, will be bifurcating those to two degrees so they will have a dedicated pre-K to third grade degree that will be starting this fall. At the same time, they are working with the community colleges to start having a degree to be teacher assistants. So while that’s going on, the Teacher Standards Board is already working on identifying teachers who are not working who can fill that role.

I’m switching gears a little. The last time we spoke, you said that your office would very likely avoid the previously projected budget shortfall. So we’re in the new fiscal year now. Where did we leave it on that?

Right now we’re still reconciling, but we should be fine. But then that was a lesson for our office. And going forward, we have to think about how do we plan out our budget. As you know, we were able to get more support from the Legislature, but because of the fiscal situation that we’re in, one of the things that the governor and I agree was instead of completely filling all the positions, we’re going to scale back a little and as needed we will be filling those positions and then we can plan out the whole year. And both the governor, and I understand that if we’re going to ask every department to be responsible, then we should also be responsible as well so we can keep up on the progress of that.

So you’ll have some vacancies in your office.

Yes.

How many vacancies?

We’re not really sure yet. Right now, we are not planning to fill at least a couple positions. And then if we don’t fill, those will lapse into the general funds and will be part of the savings of the entire state.

Along those lines, when you were the Finance chair, you held the lieutenant governor’s budget to around $900,000, but now you’ve tripled it or more since you took over. So what was your thinking there?

So the budget the last fiscal year was a little over $1 million with collective bargaining. So now that budget went from a little over $1 million to about, I think, $2 million.

$2.6 million, I believe.

So we’re planning to scale that back by about $600,000 plus. The Legislature has helped us come up with this budget. But we are also going to go back to the Legislature in January and explain that, “Hey, you know, we are scaling back,” because I think the public also expects all the departments to scale back in light of what might happen in the budget and the revenue picture.

So the lieutenant governor was making do with a million bucks or $900,000, but then you came in and you said this office needs more money. We need to really significantly increase. But you didn’t see that apparently when you were not lieutenant governor. So what made you decide you really needed to ramp up?

Part of it is because of the initiatives that we took on and we realized, in addition to our statutory duties, we needed to ramp up because of the initiatives. We took a look at what Shan (Tsutsui, a previous lieutenant governor) did, because in Shan’s year he had different initiatives. We provided his office with substantial more funding. And then part of that funding stayed on as other lieutenant governors filled that role. So in Shan’s year, I think his budget was around like $600,000 and then it went to about $1.2 because he had different initiatives. So even for us, because we took on the broadband initiative and the Ready Keiki, we felt the additional positions and additional resources would help ramp up those and other things that the governor sees fit for our office to do.

When the governor was the lieutenant governor, he was the state liaison on Covid, so I think some people think that was kind of a big deal that probably should’ve gotten money but didn’t.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he was the direct line of communication many times. I’m not sure if he made the request, but it never made it as part of the executive budget request.

And is that because of the strained relationship sometimes between the governor and the LG at the time?

I think that’s a question you to ask them. (Laughs.)

I think for the most part, both Josh and I like the relationship we have and we want our offices to work together.

I think for the most part, both Josh and I like the relationship we have and we want our offices to work together. And the governor’s office gives us a lot of good feedback and then we provide if there’s difficult individuals who go and yell at his office and they come to our office, we’ve got to deal with that, too. So we want a cohesive working office between the two.

I just had to clarify. Did you say that next year you’ll be asking the Legislature to cut your budget?

No, no, no. But then I think what they’re going to ask is why didn’t you fill it. Because every budget hearing where every department will have to answer, “Okay, these are the positions that have been given. Why didn’t you fill it?” And so the explanation will be because we are asking all the departments to be frugal and prudent. So instead of cutting it, we are planning to lapse it into the general funds if they’re not used.

I see. And was that decision a result of some of the public criticism that you got recently?

No, this decision was based on the new Council on Revenues projection and the new projection for the next several years. And I think that’s why even the governor has decided to line-item veto some of the things in the budget, like the Rainy Day Fund deposit and even, for instance, going back to teacher housing. Teacher housing is a huge investment for our state. And it’s a new initiative that we’re trying. But even that he understood, “Hey, you may not be able to use $170 million.” So we’re going to release $50 million and let’s see if we can get started. So I think that’s that is a prudent.

Are there any community driven initiatives that you think should get some attention?

It’s broadband. There is huge groundwork being done on the Big Island and there are these community groups going out there, engaging their neighbors, helping them sign up for this ACP program, which is the Affordable Carrier Connectivity Program, which basically gives you subsidies for your internet bills. And Hawaii is one of the low users when it comes to taking advantage of this free federal funding. And whether it’s state government or grants, I mean, we just don’t do a good job. So I think we are going to engage a lot more on how do you reach different communities and then get them excited about broadband and free broadband. And then how do you figure out what areas don’t have broadband? Spectrum, Hawaiian Telcom, wireless providers will not give you that info because it’s a competitive market and they will not tell you that I’m not servicing your house.

I think there have been recent broadband allocations, new appropriations, both at the state and federal level.

We as a state are getting $400 million. It’s all federal funds. The $400 million is matching part of that with $33 million in state funds. The biggest worry I have about that is when you’re dealing with significant amount of federal funds, there is always potential for something to go awry.

What is it about federal funds that get people to do wrong stuff? Because if anything, the federal government will come and find you and prosecute you. But I’m surprised how many times people think they can go and defraud the federal government.

You’ve been acting governor before and you’re going to be acting again soon when the governor is out of state. What does an acting governor actually get to do?

So I’m going to give you something funny. The governor will be out next week. So next week is the veto deadline, right? So July 11 is when you do the override or you sign all the bills. So he’ll be out. But I’m going to stay until that veto override day just to make sure that everything is okay. And then I also have to leave for a conference Tuesday night, for an education conference. The governor will be going to a governors conference and something else.

The United Nations, I think.

Yeah. And then for the first time, Attorney General Anne Lopez will be governor for three days.

When the governor leaves, he texts and he goes, “OK, I’m on the plane. OK, tag, you’re it.” And then as soon as he comes back, “I’m back.” So I’m like, OK, nothing terrible happened. So we’re always in contact because, you know, if it’s like national security or security issues or things that happen that need our attention, we’re just kind of in constant communication.

But the thought that I had was the veto override day, that’s the day that you have to veto everything. And I’m thinking, “It would be him to make me veto my own bill.” And I’m thinking for a moment, “Is he doing this?” (Laughter.)

The apostilles fees bill.

Yeah. He’s going to be like, “OK, you veto your own.”

Any final point you want to make that we haven’t discussed?

One of the things is Josh and I try not to be at the same place at the same time, because there’s a benefit of him reaching out, and he is a very active governor. He’s in the community talking to people and, you know …

Rescuing people.

Yeah, rescuing people! And I was at Parker Ranch yesterday and then somebody had a fall, and then I could tell people were thinking, “Darn, we got the wrong one. Why couldn’t the governor here? We got the lawyer. Maybe she’ll sue somebody. We got the wrong one.” (Laughter.)

So we try not to be at the same place, whether it’s coordinated or not coordinated, but we have so many places to cover. But the thing that people ask me more often than not is, “How are you getting along?”

Because I think people still have some PTSD because they want the governor and lieutenant governor to get along. People will believe the bad news, but they want to know that we’re getting along, that we’re ready to work, getting things done. And it gives them comfort, especially coming out of the pandemic. So it’s surprising how many times people ask me that. And he said, yeah, people ask him that. And we just like each other. And I think that makes a big difference, working together, working as a team.

And I was telling the cabinet guys today — I’ve been through so many admins, right? — you can really tell that this admin and the group of people we have, they are beyond their silos and they work together. They get along.

And I think it comes from Josh. He’s a problem solver, he wants to solve problems, so he’s pushing them. So that’s why I think both he and I are compatible because we’re both like, okay, “Forget the silos. Forget this is where state government should be. Break the silos and just let’s try to figure out solve the problems.” And it’s okay that mistakes are made. It’s just we’ve got to try it.